Progression riding questions
Sorry man I just can’t see your way working at all, it goes against my understanding of how someone can spin on their board. Like Andy has said, my way is identical to the way you would spin a normal bs, except you’re coming off your heel edge.
Do you have a video of someone spinning the way you’ve described, bs off the heels you can post for comparison?
Here’s a video of my mate doing a bs 180 off the heels onto a rail. You can see he turns his upper body first before popping and spinning with his lower legs. As he was off balance and bent too much at the waist he slips out at the end.
I know it works because I was taught that way and I can do them easily by using this method.
You can rotate your lower body in one direction by rotating your upper body in the opposite direction - that’s counter-rotation. It’s used throughout freestyle snowboarding. It’s an easy method to get people used to the feeling of popping off their heels and rotating their snowboard backside. The same as a shifty or a frontside boardslide, just rotated a bit further.
As I said, I know they can be done your way. I’m not disputing that. I just think there’s an easier progression step to introduce the idea before they use your method. Both work, I know that for sure.
I guess we’ll have to wait until I can get some footage of me demonstrating my technique. I think it’s just a hard one to visualise until you see it. Don’t rule it out until I show you.
I don’t think they’re necessarily exactly the same. It’s easier to pop off your toes and therefor easier to initiate the rotation. I think this is why counter-rotation is more important when going backside off the heels. I don’t really counter-rotate in the air when doing frontside off the toes; you just pre-wind then unwind the same you would for frontside off the heels.
That said, what I have explained in the paragraph above can still be used for backside off the heels. I just think it’s harder that way for those just learning this new skill. Personally I think it’s easier popping then counter-rotating in the air. But of course it can be done the other way, or even a combination of both. Each to their own I guess.
I’m really enjoying this discussion. The more I think about it, the more I realise there’s many ways to make it happen. Personally I’m just trying to explain it the simplest way as I see it, and as I was taught (on session with Jose).
Yeah, Jose’ is the man. I learned a lot from him & Dan about spinning backside. Actually Jose showed me the coolest trick to always land clean back 180s & 540s. But I’ll save that for another time.
And yeah you’re right, it’s definitely harder to spin backside off the heels and requires a little more counter rotation when learning. I should have written that in the part when I said - the same except blablablablabla
Yeah, Jose’ is the man. I learned a lot from him & Dan about spinning backside. Actually Jose showed me the coolest trick to always land clean back 180s & 540s. But I’ll save that for another time.
Do tell kind sir;
OH I totally just figured out what Rider is saying. I use this technique to do pretzels on rails.
I think the part I didn’t get is that if you counter rotate straight away, you would turn your upper body 90 degrees frontside and your lower body 180 degrees backside. Seperating your body 270 degrees is impossible. BUT
If you have already turned your upper body 90 degrees backside before take off, then you could counter rotate the whole thing. And you don’t have to use any rotation to initiate the spin. Just counter rotation. I’ve done these before.
Is that what you’re saying Rider?
Yeah, Jose’ is the man. I learned a lot from him & Dan about spinning backside. Actually Jose showed me the coolest trick to always land clean back 180s & 540s. But I’ll save that for another time.
Do tell kind sir;
I’ll show u at the Shred Deano. This thread is way to complicated already lol.
haha deal.
Yeah, Jose’ is the man. I learned a lot from him & Dan about spinning backside. Actually Jose showed me the coolest trick to always land clean back 180s & 540s. But I’ll save that for another time.
Do tell kind sir;
I’ll show u at the Shred Deano. This thread is way to complicated already lol.
explain it! I won’t be there.
OH I totally just figured out what Rider is saying. I use this technique to do pretzels on rails.
I think the part I didn’t get is that if you counter rotate straight away, you would turn your upper body 90 degrees frontside and your lower body 180 degrees backside. Seperating your body 270 degrees is impossible. BUT
If you have already turned your upper body 90 degrees backside before take off, then you could counter rotate the whole thing. And you don’t have to use any rotation to initiate the spin. Just counter rotation. I’ve done these before.
Is that what you’re saying Rider?
Yeah, you can do it that way. Or you can just keep your upper body where it is and let your lower body do the full 180 degree rotation. I think the second way (lower body doing all the rotation) takes a little bit more control but that’s how I do it. You’re still counter-rotating but you’re keeping your upper body on the original plane. It’s probably easier rotating your upper body a little bit to the backside first.
I noticed I was doing front ones off my toes in two different ways pretty much randomly, it was only when I started trying front 3s off the toes I became more discerning in my setup and movements. What I learnt was this:
For 180s you can approach with your upper body already turned in the direction you want to spin, as you pop turn your hips SLIGHTLY in the direction you want to spin and then make a counter rotational or unwinding motion in the air to complete the spin. This applied to hardway spins off either edge.
The other option is to start prewound with your upper body and just throw it as if it’s a normal spin just off the wrong (hardway) edge.
The second thing that I learnt was that for doing hard way 3s and more the prewinding is the only game in town….you can use a counter rotate to make up a little shortfall in your spin but without the prewind your never making it to 360.
I know all this has been said in different ways by others but one thing I haven’t heard mentioned is that to do hard way spins it’s easier if you think about popping them more off your front foot then the back, this can be either pure nollie or just a front foot heavy version of a two footed takeoff.
Yeah, you can do it that way. Or you can just keep your upper body where it is and let your lower body do the full 180 degree rotation. I think the second way (lower body doing all the rotation) takes a little bit more control but that’s how I do it. You’re still counter-rotating but you’re keeping your upper body on the original plane. It’s probably easier rotating your upper body a little bit to the backside first.
What I’m picturing when you say this is someone goes off a jump, straight air and in the air they rotate their legs and board so it’s switch but they are still looking down the hill.
This doesn’t work for two reasons:
1. Try standing on the spot jumping but keeping your upper body in the same spot and using only your lower body to perform a 180. You cannot twist your legs around enough to allow for your board to point down the hill without your upper body also rotating.
2. You cannot spin a complete 180+ without the counter rotation/seperation, or what we know better as pre-wind (or even just a wind as such a littler spin doesn’t require us to counter rotate) being performed on the take off.
Try jumping on the spot and only spinning once you’re in the air. It’s virtually impossibru. You may turn under 90 degrees but there’s no way you can do a 180 without first initiating the spin on the ground.
I’m thinking maybe there is just some confusion over when and where to use counter rotation and separation. Otherwise I really need to see a video of it to understand. You should even be able to do what you’re saying standing still, no? Can you just strap in and do it on the flat in your living room?
The way I see it is there has to be some sort of pre motion. If you go straight in the air, you cannot keep your upper body still while the bottom moves. It is basic physics. To every action, there is an equal and oposite reaction. This is how shiftys work. You have to start some of your motion before take off
K2, that’s true in physics but not necessarily true for the human body, as both upper and lower bodies can be controlled independently. It’s just takes control. Just because you wave your arm doesn’t mean your leg is going to move. Try it standing on the spot. Jump up and rotate your lower body and hold your upper body exactly where it is. Can you do it?
Sam, we’re not talking big jumps. This is the first progression step, meaning we’re on the flat or at most going off a small roller. As with most 180s when people first learn, they are most likely going to under-rotate while they get used to the feeling. Your upper body will rotate slightly. Of course you can’t keep it completely still.
I think you guys are looking into it too deeply. This is a progression step. There will likely be some small pre-spin with the upper body in the backside direction but only slightly (say 30 degrees). There will likely be some under-rotation with the lower body while they’re learning. But that’s OK. Can you under-rotate a backside 180 and ride out cleanly on your toes? Of course you can. So really we’re talking about a separation of anywhere from 120 degrees to make this happen. You can’t tell me your body can’t do that. I can pretty much do the full 180 degree separation.
Is this the best method? I doubt it. Is it the easiest way to progress into backside 180s off the heels? I’d say so. At least it was for me.
Try the 180 degree separation just riding on the snow without getting any air. Straight run down the fall line and separate your lower body 180 degrees to the backside direction while holding your upper body where it is. Even if you can’t get 180 degrees, you should be able to get 150 degrees. I do this all the time when riding. Anyone I’ve ridden with this season has seen me do it. I even taught it to Finney. Great exercise.
I’ve tried this standing on the ground countless times today. If someone saw me they’d think I’m crazy. 
I think I see what you’re getting at… You’re not actually talking about a complete bs 180 off the heels as a trick off a feature, just a progression into learning them? So you’re talking about the 90 as a progression to learn the separation needed? Which is also the same method we use to teach separation on rails.
Yes I can separate my legs from my upper body to about 150. But I don’t think many people, outside of trained gymnasts and contortionists, can do a complete 180. This is also a very awkward and potentially harmful thing to do if you end up having an accident - trying to balance and control your body like this is very hard. I ride “pretzeled” for fun just to see how far I can get down the mountain doing it.
It’s still off for me though. You still need to use the upper body to wind and initiate the spin for more than a 90, a complete spin cannot be initiated from the lower body - Which is what I was originally getting out of what you were saying.
K2 is right, but I think he meant that is why shifty’s work - because no motion was initiated before take off.
Okay so I just did a few lounge room 180s 
and what I found was what rider said was true (with out being too picky & exact) you can actually keep you’re upper body still and just rotate your lower body 180. It’s kinda hard though with out the upper body rotating the opposite way. Or using some rotation at the start.
Then I read Riders post and he says there may be about 30 degrees rotation in there.
Then I read Sams post that he can only separate 150 degrees…....... wait for it…. here it comes….
150 + 30 = 180!
Problem solved