To all instructors - best way to teach toe side turns
What are your teaching strategies for toe side turns. We all know that most people are scared about this turn because of the initial looking down the hill.. What have you found works and doesn’t work with teaching toe side turns?
I started using the high five technique. One day i did it with a kid in 2007 and it became my trick of the trade..
Discuss.. the more details the better..
L.B.
I find that some have real difficulty with making that rotation to where they have the back to the hill..
I begin with toe edge side-slipping so that once they get into this position after the turn they know what it is supposed to feel like.
( a lot of my methods in teaching is to break it into parts and teach each part separately, often starting with the ending positioning details)
After being comfortable with the position they will be in when thy complete the task.
I have them work on moving the board around a little as they are slipping down the hill on the toe edge.
often this can progress to a garland or pendulum shaped turn which they created from the toe edge and then back to the toe edge.
(it is important to keep the learner on the same edge, and not have them switching from heel to toe… not yet)
What is missing from this post is the way that I have them do it. there are various methods of instructing them to make the board do ‘this’ or ‘that’.
Where to apply pressure where to not apply pressure, what to bend and what to straighten etc.
there are many ways of doing this, and some are more effective than others. What works for one learner may not be as effective as what works for another learner.
I’ve said it before, but what make an instructor most effective is having many different ways to have the learner try something, all with the same goal in mind… until you find what works for them.
The method I start with in getting them to move the board back and forth into and out of a full sideways side-slip, is to alternate having more weight on one foot than on another foot.
Since I’m encouraging them to keep a little bend in the knee and equal weight on both feet to slip smoothly, I continue with that train of thought with what foot they are putting more weight on. If they are teen age or adult I ask them about not only what foot, but what part of the foot - the toes or the heels. this creates arareness of each foot, and each edge. They are thinking about to edge pressure vs heel pressure, and they are thinking about left foot vs right foot. There’s no need for me to intdocuse anything else at this point. so with that information I ask them to move the weight around to either the left foot or he right, and eiher the toe or the heel to get the desired response.
I teah all lower body.
On kids I teach much more upper body, as they dont have the leg strength.
I could add more detail, and there is much more detail to it, but I’ll stop here.
I look forward to what others say though.
I think it’s very important to get them strong on their toes using pendulum. If they aren’t strong and comfortable on their toes they will be too hesitant to get on the new edge. I always try build up individual skills, then piece them together (toeside pendulum and straight runs being the most important for toeside turns).
the above posts provide excellent methods of introducing a student to toeside pendulum, and toeside turning. good job guys. I’m just going to talk about my own experience teaching toeside turning and a good technique I’ve found for giving students more
For me, LEARNING how to TEACH a technique involves me thinking back to how i originally felt as a beginner snowboarder. I can remember when I was on the bunny hill of Glen Eden, Ontario, clad in a courderoy Nike hat, gelled hair underneath, and glasses. No joke. Not only can i remember this obscene style, but I can sure as hell remember almost to a T what each movement (and failed movement) felt like.
The closest compairison to my phobia of toeside turning was falling backwards on a set of stairs. Youre originally planted on that stair knowing the incline infront of you continues to a decline below you, and as you think about this you begin to put weight backwards, now your hands are wind milling.. oh dear god.. im falling down set of stairs. that;s also how I felt about it..the reprocussions of taking a flight of stairs up the ass were equivilent to a toeside scorpion.
Thus, when learning how to teach toeside turns, I wanted to focus on giving someone a true sense of BODY angulation forward, almost like they were laying comfortably on that dangerous set of stairs.
Because a straight or ‘solid’ back is important in snowboarding, I find its GREAT for students to run a static excercise involving (in group lessons ,younger ages) a ‘competition’ on who can flex the most in their knees and ankles , while keeping a fairly straight back and keeping balanced. You elaborate by explaining (as the posts above did) that there are different parts of the foot pressure one can focus on, and when flexing nice and deep, you should be focused more on the toes. When they start moving slowly on snow, their angulation increases dramatically and thus so does edge pressure. It’s dope and awesome in young groups, and older students will challenge their muscles and flex ability naturally (“I think I can I think I can”).
When strapped back into their board, these students often find they IMMEDIATELY place more trust in their toeside edge, whether its falling forward slightly initially, or finding that natural balance point right away. I notice this drastically decreases the chance of the dreaded toeside scorpion, because the students were just statically flexing the piss out of their lower half. Its weird how static excercises translate either REALLY well , or REALLY poorly (twist the discs is a load of shit, suck it CASI).
my focus when teaching begginers is trying to avoid them having any painful stacks while learning. Some kids just wanna rock it and to be fair to these dudes, if they take a bad one they just shake off the snow, find their hat and goggles and get cracking again. kudos to these punks. for everyone else a good fall can do serious damage to their comfidence and consequently their commitment. I really focus on stance while doing straight sideslips (both edges) and then i tell them to turn their hips subtly in one direction then the other, with weight fairly even on both feet. I really try and get them to feel like their in control of the direction the board is facing.
After they start to feel a level of control i get them to make their pedulum style movements progressively more down hill with the goal of getting as near to down the fall line as possible. I then do some dodgy snow drawings and explain that they’ve been working on the top half of the turn and then we do some j turn style excersises but with both feet strapped in then i get them to put the two together on mellow terrain, holding their back hand if needed…..
sorry for the lack of jokes.
Question for all you instructors - How did you start instructing? Did you have to do a course? If so, which one? Any of youz taught OS?
Just curious… Cheers
i like shredlife’s static excersize, i’m going to give that a whirl this winter.
and if you want to become an instructor, most countries have an association that certifies their instructors. for Canada it is CASI, you take a 3 day course that evaluates both your teaching and riding. assuming you pass both, you are officially an instructor. you’ll probably start with teaching beginners, but that’s ok, teaching beginner snowboarders all day beats the shit out of working at a mcdicks or something like.
Question for all you instructors - How did you start instructing? Did you have to do a course? If so, which one? Any of youz taught OS?
Just curious… Cheers
It really depend where you intend on teaching. Most the instructors on this website work overseas (mainly Canada and USA). There are a few of us that teach in both Australia and Canada, and a few that teach in both Canada and New Zealand.
There will be an article coming soonish about instructing when we release ‘The Industry’ section of the website. It will give you a lot of information and advice about instructing, how to get started, the benefits, the organisations etc…
Each country has their own system, and most certifications are recognised worldwide. In Australia the governing body is the APSI (http://www.apsi.net.au/). Australia never used to have a certification course, I think this year is the first time they are offering it. Previously you had to get an instructing job at the resort FIRST, which is ridiculous. There would be a big group of instructors teaching at the snow with no qualifications whatsoever. To pass the APSI level 1, you have to sit it at the end of the season, after a full season of teaching. I have never quite understood the logic of this. Anyway, that now seems to be fixed.
Where are you thinking of instructing?
Reading through these posts gives me a lot of ideas.
I find that most riders just dont want to turn their back on the hill, but to complete a toe side turn you HAVE TO!.
I re-emphasize the position they want to end up in - facing up hill with both knees facing up the hill and to come to a complete stop again, maybe slipping down on the toe edge.
Something I find myself asking of them is as they are making the turn to totally turn thier upper body (and HIPS!!!!) facing up the hill. so their belly button is facing directly up the hill.
I’m thinking of an exercise.
thy likely know by this time what it is like to kneel down on the snow facing up hill.
To help instill confidence, have them turn to their knees and fall into this position.
I forsee a rider switching all the weight to the back leg as they try and drop to the snow, so be on the lookout for that.
Just another idea.
Good stuff in this topic!
EDIT:
It is important to know, as has been mentioned above, but I’d like to re-word it…
It is easy to ‘over teach’ and what I mean by this, is that you get those kids that are capable, and actually want to take a couple hits and fall all over the place, they have fun with that.
In the US we teach Safety, fun and learning. notice that FUN comes before learning.
An instructor can get too focused on the learning that the kids in the lesson dont have any FUN!
If they have fun they will come back, and if they have fun the WILL learn.
So yea, if you can say less and verbally instruct less, while you SHOW more - this couldbe the best way for a very visual learner to receive the information needed to learn.
dont overteach.
Question for all you instructors - How did you start instructing? Did you have to do a course? If so, which one? Any of youz taught OS?
Just curious… Cheers
This should be a different topic.
Snowslider, you’re right it probably should be a Q for a different thread, however as all you instructors are chatting in this thread it seemed the ideal place to ask.
Rider, am not looking to do instructing just yet. However, if and when I get a bit better on the board and am sick of my desk job yeah for sure. I mean it seems a fantastic job (as viewed by an observer any way) spending your day snowboarding and travelling the world!! And thanks for the info, I’ll wait and check out more when its posted on the site. I’m sure there are many others using the site and forum envious and wanting to know more…
It is important to know, as has been mentioned above, but I’d like to re-word it…
It is easy to ‘over teach’ and what I mean by this, is that you get those kids that are capable, and actually want to take a couple hits and fall all over the place, they have fun with that.
In the US we teach Safety, fun and learning. notice that FUN comes before learning.
An instructor can get too focused on the learning that the kids in the lesson dont have any FUN!
If they have fun they will come back, and if they have fun the WILL learn.So yea, if you can say less and verbally instruct less, while you SHOW more - this couldbe the best way for a very visual learner to receive the information needed to learn.
dont overteach.
I totally agree. When teaching in the schools pod this year on Blackcomb for prolly half the year I had kids who were a little older (12-18) and had learned + develeoped their muscle groups / balance / core strength more than the Whistler Kids i taught the other half of the year (6-12).
At schools I felt as thought I was more of a coach than a teacher in that my responsibility depended more on encouraging them through ‘stokage’ ... ahaha, eg. yeah , good job, but why did you do ‘this this this’ when you should have done ’ this this this, youre a smart person, you know you can send it, lets go up again and kill it this time’ ... instead of at Whistler Kids more development through drills and repetition.
In reference to toeside turns, and in addition to some techniques I like to use, I’d like to comment on how each group takes on toeside differently. It’s interesting how the younger students, although developed effectively through drills, choose to DIVE in to toeside headfirst. I’ve had more young riders be stoked on just simply trying toeside based on my demonstration, without any preconceived drill or focus. The older students, although encouraged (i find) through challenging and identification (ok, remember that sport you told me you did at lunch? well lets relate that to toeside, etc etc) depend more on drills etc to get toeside going…
I think this means EVERYONE is nervous about learning toeside except little shredders who havnt hurt themselves enough to realize otherwise.
that being said, watch out when teaching it to the older ones, they need the metaphorical hand hold as well.. or just shove them down the hill and see what happens..
It is important to know, as has been mentioned above, but I’d like to re-word it…
It is easy to ‘over teach’ and what I mean by this, is that you get those kids that are capable, and actually want to take a couple hits and fall all over the place, they have fun with that.
In the US we teach Safety, fun and learning. notice that FUN comes before learning.
An instructor can get too focused on the learning that the kids in the lesson dont have any FUN!
If they have fun they will come back, and if they have fun the WILL learn.So yea, if you can say less and verbally instruct less, while you SHOW more - this couldbe the best way for a very visual learner to receive the information needed to learn.
dont overteach.
I totally agree. When teaching in the schools pod this year on Blackcomb for prolly half the year I had kids who were a little older (12-18) and had learned + develeoped their muscle groups / balance / core strength more than the Whistler Kids i taught the other half of the year (6-12).
At schools I felt as thought I was more of a coach than a teacher in that my responsibility depended more on encouraging them through ‘stokage’ ... ahaha, eg. yeah , good job, but why did you do ‘this this this’ when you should have done ’ this this this, youre a smart person, you know you can send it, lets go up again and kill it this time’ ... instead of at Whistler Kids more development through drills and repetition.
In reference to toeside turns, and in addition to some techniques I like to use, I’d like to comment on how each group takes on toeside differently. It’s interesting how the younger students, although developed effectively through drills, choose to DIVE in to toeside headfirst. I’ve had more young riders be stoked on just simply trying toeside based on my demonstration, without any preconceived drill or focus. The older students, although encouraged (i find) through challenging and identification (ok, remember that sport you told me you did at lunch? well lets relate that to toeside, etc etc) depend more on drills etc to get toeside going…
I think this means EVERYONE is nervous about learning toeside except little shredders who havnt hurt themselves enough to realize otherwise.
that being said, watch out when teaching it to the older ones, they need the metaphorical hand hold as well.. or just shove them down the hill and see what happens..
I’ve always hated to see instructors use the teaching method that just says “do this” and give them a display of what to do…. The funny thing is that may be all the learner needs!
It’s sad to see this method used cause it can guve you the impression that it is thier only teaching method… how sad, but true for young, unlearned instructors (which should never happen).
One of the fundamental things that a new instructor should learn is they way that learners receive information. We all know this because it pretains to us from our school days or work or whatever.
There is an auditory component, which is hearing the information said to you.
there is a visual component, which is seeing the task performed.
and there is the kinetic, or kinesthetic component which is feeling the task being done yourself.
Ever had that learned that just needs to do it themselves to really understand what is being asked of them?
Some may say they need to see you do it (this is why switch riding is so important to teaching because if you cant perform the task the way that they will be doing it… a visual learner is then placed at a great disadvantage - they need to visualize themselves doing it THROUGH your performance of it.)
but few will tell you that they need you to describe it with a little more detail. But there are some that need this, they just usually wont tell you that.
So there different ways to give an get this information, but this really just scratches the surface and is the foundation of that information.
So telling a kid “do this” is a horrible thing to see being done in a lesson, but it may be that the instructor really knows what they are doing…
Ever thought about how your learner prefers to receive the information?
In private lessons I REALLY try to pick up on clues that tell me this. If not directly ask them - if they are old enough and mature enough to possibly know.
Yeah definetly. I was stating that younger students seem to be fearless and thus you can capitalize on the ‘do this’ method. Their confidence is so high and un-waivering that if you explain the technique before, set them up for success with a good demo, and stay close to catch them if they scorpion, they often learn quicker and dont eat it as hard. Older students who generally pick up visually and can mimick my snowboarding more often than younger students seem to (with toeside) require alot more reassurance and drills because they know the possibilties of injury when having your backside edge catch (they saw their friend try it 5 seconds ago and crack thier head). this sometimes false sense of fear slows older students development and makes toeside harder to teach to their age group, in my opinion. ch.